I have a customer who is requesting I try to match a commercial cabinet makers stain/finish on maple cabinets. The color is cherry and I have attached a copy of a photo from the makers website. When using a pigmented stain the hard maple does not allow much of the pigment to adhear to the surface. do I need to use a dye stain or does anyone have any other suggestions? Also, does maple blotch like cherry can.
Stain/Finish For Maple
- Thread starter Paul
- Start date
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kerry grubb
Well-known member
Paul, the finish on the cabinets is most likely a dyed laquer. I do not spray it, but have a friend who owns a pro. cabinet shop that has done it for me in the past to colour match. The laquer is dyed before it is sprayed on, the stain does not necessarily sink into the wood as much as lay on top of it. This way blotching is not really a problem.
Thanks for the responses on this. I guess what I really need help with is how can a certain color be matched? For example, if I start with a dye stain, say colonial maple just to pick one, but find I would like it to be darker or have more red in it or less red and more brown. How do I know what colors to add to go in the direction I am looking for? I have seen color wheels on homesteads website but never bought one. This would not only be for maple but for any wood. Thanks again.
Color matching takes time and practice. If you start with colonial maple and want it more red, then add red. It can either be a concentrated red color or maybe a cherry stain that would have more red in it. If the color gets to red, you can add green which turns the red to brown. Making a color darker, you can make the stain more concentrated or add black. Yellow and red make orange... When color matching, I usually use the powders from Lockwood and carefully measure the amount of powder and water and keep track of how it changes. I also have a supply of standard colors concentrates- red, black , blue, green, yellow plus a bunch of standard mahoganys, walnuts, and cherrys to get me to whatever color is needed. That is just in aniline powders. There is also alcohol dyes, pigmented wiping stains, glazes etc. that you may need to figure out as well.
Pete Aleksa
www.cherrybrookwoodworks.com
Pete Aleksa
www.cherrybrookwoodworks.com
dkeller_nc
Well-known member
Paul - Couple of comments based on mistakes I've made in the past (nothing teaches like mistakes!). First (and most importantly) do not put a finish on your project until the other cabinetry actually arrives. It is -not- possible to match wood finishes from a photograph.
Second, use an alcohol-based dye to achieve your color. Yes, they are not as light-fast as water-based dyes, but if you're a beginner with this, it will be far easier to match a color with an alcohol-based dye because the water-based powders color shift quite a bit from wet wood to dry.
Third, don't attempt to dye the wood. It is far, far easier to use a toner over an initial clear finish coat than to actually dye the wood. A toner is simply a finish coat with dye added. I would recommend shellac because it's 100% compatible with alcohol-based aniline dyes. If you don't quite get the color you want, and as long as the color you have is a bit lighter than the color you wish to achieve, adjusting it is simply a matter of adding another thin coat of colored finish. This also works to adjust the tone of the color - if you want more red, then add a few drops of red to the colored finish and give it another coat.
After you've got the color where you want it, simply coat the piece with the top finish of the customer's choice - shellac is compatible with everything.
Finally, realize that you will either have to un-mount and take a cabinet door with you to match in your shop, or you will have to match on-site. Colors look quite different under different lighting, and what may be a perfect match under your shop lights is glaringly different in sunlight or the customer's lighting.
Second, use an alcohol-based dye to achieve your color. Yes, they are not as light-fast as water-based dyes, but if you're a beginner with this, it will be far easier to match a color with an alcohol-based dye because the water-based powders color shift quite a bit from wet wood to dry.
Third, don't attempt to dye the wood. It is far, far easier to use a toner over an initial clear finish coat than to actually dye the wood. A toner is simply a finish coat with dye added. I would recommend shellac because it's 100% compatible with alcohol-based aniline dyes. If you don't quite get the color you want, and as long as the color you have is a bit lighter than the color you wish to achieve, adjusting it is simply a matter of adding another thin coat of colored finish. This also works to adjust the tone of the color - if you want more red, then add a few drops of red to the colored finish and give it another coat.
After you've got the color where you want it, simply coat the piece with the top finish of the customer's choice - shellac is compatible with everything.
Finally, realize that you will either have to un-mount and take a cabinet door with you to match in your shop, or you will have to match on-site. Colors look quite different under different lighting, and what may be a perfect match under your shop lights is glaringly different in sunlight or the customer's lighting.
I have to respectively disagree with a few of the comments.
It is possible to match off a photo. I have done it numerous times. If you do some samples off the photo that you present to the client, which I feel is mandatory, an they agree on one- you just matched the picture or as close as possible.
I dont think color matching is any easier with water or alcohol dyes. I feel I have more control over water dyes and more color options. There is a time and place for each. including pigmnted stains.
I would dye the wood as close as possible to the final color and NOT rely 100% on tinting shellac/lacquer for the color. I rarely tint my top coats. I feel that is a last ditch effort to correct any color problems which could easily be avoided.
Although most people think shellac is compatable with eveything, it is my experience that if you have to much shellac as a base, then topcoat with a more durable(harder) finish, you will have problems.....
I would hope that you are matching this color either in sunlight or under bulbs that are close to sunlight. I forget what mine are at this point...but if you are just trying to get close to that color I wouldnt worry- you will have your sampls in their light anyway.
Pete Aleksa
www.cherrybrookwoodworks.com
It is possible to match off a photo. I have done it numerous times. If you do some samples off the photo that you present to the client, which I feel is mandatory, an they agree on one- you just matched the picture or as close as possible.
I dont think color matching is any easier with water or alcohol dyes. I feel I have more control over water dyes and more color options. There is a time and place for each. including pigmnted stains.
I would dye the wood as close as possible to the final color and NOT rely 100% on tinting shellac/lacquer for the color. I rarely tint my top coats. I feel that is a last ditch effort to correct any color problems which could easily be avoided.
Although most people think shellac is compatable with eveything, it is my experience that if you have to much shellac as a base, then topcoat with a more durable(harder) finish, you will have problems.....
I would hope that you are matching this color either in sunlight or under bulbs that are close to sunlight. I forget what mine are at this point...but if you are just trying to get close to that color I wouldnt worry- you will have your sampls in their light anyway.
Pete Aleksa
www.cherrybrookwoodworks.com
dkeller_nc
Well-known member
I would hope that you are matching this color either in sunlight or under bulbs that are close to sunlight. I forget what mine are at this point...but if you are just trying to get close to that color I wouldnt worry- you will have your sampls in their light anyway.
That's why I suggested to Paul that he not try to do this, and is based on what I infer to be his specific situation. Inherent in any modern digital photography camera is a white-balancing algorithm that can (and does) substantially alter the perception of color from what one's eyes sees. Add to that the alterations inherent in the printing process (paper and ink selection are just two of the many variables), and it will be very uncertain at best whether one will be able to match the appearance of an existing piece in person.
Note that's quite different from matching a piece to the appearance of the photograph as you describe. Certainly one can match the appearance of a piece of wood to a phtograph, but that's not the same as matching a piece of wood to the object represented by the photograph.
the comment about not attempting to dye the wood was very specific to what he noted he was using - maple. Maple has the disturbing tendency to absorb a good deal of the dye in any grain that has a slightly different direction to the overall flat grain of the board. I see the result of this quite often, and the appearance is, quite frankly, hideous. And for a beginner, toning the finish is considerably easier and more controllabe because the wood itself isn't actually dyed, and the overall color/darkness is very easy to adjust by applying another coat.
Finally, you've a point about shellac's compatibility that I neglected to stipulate. You're quite right that "easy" shellac (pre-dissolved in a can) or non de-waxed flakes are going to cause some issues. However, the de-waxed flake product is pretty much a standard in the refinishing/restoration industry because of its compatibilities with other finishes. I figure the opinion of a large majority of professional refinisher's and restorers would be a suitable place for a beginner to start.
That's why I suggested to Paul that he not try to do this, and is based on what I infer to be his specific situation. Inherent in any modern digital photography camera is a white-balancing algorithm that can (and does) substantially alter the perception of color from what one's eyes sees. Add to that the alterations inherent in the printing process (paper and ink selection are just two of the many variables), and it will be very uncertain at best whether one will be able to match the appearance of an existing piece in person.
Note that's quite different from matching a piece to the appearance of the photograph as you describe. Certainly one can match the appearance of a piece of wood to a phtograph, but that's not the same as matching a piece of wood to the object represented by the photograph.
the comment about not attempting to dye the wood was very specific to what he noted he was using - maple. Maple has the disturbing tendency to absorb a good deal of the dye in any grain that has a slightly different direction to the overall flat grain of the board. I see the result of this quite often, and the appearance is, quite frankly, hideous. And for a beginner, toning the finish is considerably easier and more controllabe because the wood itself isn't actually dyed, and the overall color/darkness is very easy to adjust by applying another coat.
Finally, you've a point about shellac's compatibility that I neglected to stipulate. You're quite right that "easy" shellac (pre-dissolved in a can) or non de-waxed flakes are going to cause some issues. However, the de-waxed flake product is pretty much a standard in the refinishing/restoration industry because of its compatibilities with other finishes. I figure the opinion of a large majority of professional refinisher's and restorers would be a suitable place for a beginner to start.
Maybe this is beating a dead horse but... I understand all about white balance and color etc. I do it on my photos.
I dont suspect these cabinets are in place in the house and he has to match it exactly(which I think is do-able) but the client found this picture and said- make my cabinets look like this. I think it is matchable.
If the color has been altered by the print,email,or however he got it- it frankly might not matter.
I had a piece of furniture that went out last Thursday. A free standing inlayed bar to match a custom pool table. CLient wanted the bar color to match the pool table. I was sent images thru email and printed out on cheap paper that were probably taken from a phone in a dark basement and they were basically crap pictures. Worst I have ever received. So, I asked the client about the color to get a better feel for it and then made about 5 quick samples of varying shades of color, light to dark, one a little more red etc. I drove down to the house and guess what- I matched it. ANd if I didnt have it dead on, they could easily say this is close but darker or more red etc... its that easy. What would have happened if I went back to this client and complained about the picture I was sent and said I cant match it? Im sure I wouldnt be pricing two more pieces for this client.
I understand coloring maple is a pain. But not enough of a pain to not try it. Those cabinets are probably toned but I still wouldnt put 100% of the color in the finish. Thats just my opinion.
I also know shellac as a barrier is a "trade standard" but as a spit coat. I have never used pre mixed shellac so I cant comment on that but I do speak from experience a long time ago when I used regular fresh de waxed shellac under a finish and the thickness of that shellac caused problems. I would hate to have this guy get his color on through tinting shellac and then top coating with whatever to just have problems down the road.
Pete Aleksa
Cherry Brook Woodworks
I dont suspect these cabinets are in place in the house and he has to match it exactly(which I think is do-able) but the client found this picture and said- make my cabinets look like this. I think it is matchable.
If the color has been altered by the print,email,or however he got it- it frankly might not matter.
I had a piece of furniture that went out last Thursday. A free standing inlayed bar to match a custom pool table. CLient wanted the bar color to match the pool table. I was sent images thru email and printed out on cheap paper that were probably taken from a phone in a dark basement and they were basically crap pictures. Worst I have ever received. So, I asked the client about the color to get a better feel for it and then made about 5 quick samples of varying shades of color, light to dark, one a little more red etc. I drove down to the house and guess what- I matched it. ANd if I didnt have it dead on, they could easily say this is close but darker or more red etc... its that easy. What would have happened if I went back to this client and complained about the picture I was sent and said I cant match it? Im sure I wouldnt be pricing two more pieces for this client.
I understand coloring maple is a pain. But not enough of a pain to not try it. Those cabinets are probably toned but I still wouldnt put 100% of the color in the finish. Thats just my opinion.
I also know shellac as a barrier is a "trade standard" but as a spit coat. I have never used pre mixed shellac so I cant comment on that but I do speak from experience a long time ago when I used regular fresh de waxed shellac under a finish and the thickness of that shellac caused problems. I would hate to have this guy get his color on through tinting shellac and then top coating with whatever to just have problems down the road.
Pete Aleksa
Cherry Brook Woodworks
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