Slant top desk fall board

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M

maskws

Well-known member
I took Jeffs Winchester VA desk class and the fall board has a mitered breadboard M&T edge in which the original was glued on.  On a recent trip to Winterthur I decided to look at other examples of breadboard edges in general.  I saw probably 20 examples and saw very few that had any pegs.  I only saw one that had a mitered breadboard edge with pegs and it had a small crack in it anyway.

Another thing that surprise me is how much the fall board shrunk in width. I saw some examples that the breadboard edge was at least 1/4 in longer the then width of the main board.

I am trying to decide if I should follow the original or use a peg and allow it to expand and contract.

Martin
 
If you want to make a faithful reproduction and the original was glued on, glue it on, if you can't live with a crack, allow for movement. Many period pieces have cracks for various reasons. If you are building faithful reproductions with period methods you have to expect similar flaws.
 
You can to some extent hide the pegs by carefully boring from the inside and not bring the peg/hole all the way  through the face of the board(leave yourself 3/32 to spare). I have made 2 desks this way. On at least one I was inlaying the writing surface with leather and surrounded this field with veneer- in this way,  the pegs are completey hidden- but might objest to covering the writing surface covered with leather.
The 13-14 inch wide board might shrink 1/8 over time, but really probably lessif the lumber is chosen wee and properly seasoned.
 
Martin- The breadboards will stay the same length and the fall board will shrink. This can be a major problem at the bottom edge where the hinge is because the hinge on the shrinking fallboard can effectively be pulled away from the writing surface if the breadboard ends were tight against the writing surface when the lid was built. This will rip the screws in the lid or writing surface. Try to fasten the  breadboard at the hinge side and allow the movement to occur at the other edge.-Al
 
Martin,

I agree with  Al.  Let the movement be at the top end but make a larger rabbit at the top so that when the center expands there will be enough room for it or your top could stick in place.

Another method is to fasten the center section firmly at the middle of the BB ends so that it expands and shrinks equal amounts in both directions.

Which ever method you do, stain the edges of the dado and tenon before assembly to hide any unfinished wood.

Dennis Bork
 
Thanks all.  This fall board has mitered edge at the top , so it has to be glued up there.

martin
 
The pieces at Winterthur have endured over 200 years of changes in temperature and humidity with resulting large shrinkage. Two breadboard pieces I made about 10 years ago haven't changed dimension at all in my heated and air conditioned home. I'm sure there will be some shrinkage in time but I suspect it will be my heirs who have to worry about it and not me.

Howard Steier
 
On the same note; how are the square pegs done?  I see these in breadboard desk tops as well as some highboys.
 
I typically bore a hole the diameter of the width of the peg. I then sharpen the end of the peg, mostly just knocking the corners off. I then drive the peg into the hole and trim off the excess. Do not drive the pegs in diagonal ( square rather than diamond if that makes sense) to the grain, keep them parallel or the wood will split. Pegs hold better if they are driven in at a slight angle.
The photo is of a peg that has been driven in and then driven back out. Practice on scrap.
Mike
 

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Ty G said:
On the same note; how are the square pegs done?  I see these in breadboard desk tops as well as some highboys.
Click to expand...

My friends at the museum looked at these some time ago and concluded that on the pieces they had, the pegs weren't originally square. They became sort of squarish through shrinkage.  Those same pages when removed were round.  They couldn't say if they were round like beat thru a dowelling plate, or just whittled round.

Also, taper was typical but not throughout the entire length.  And taper did seem to be whittled.

I make pins with a dowelling plate.  I taper them in my shop pencil sharpener.  I also think it's a good idea to make up a bunch of these and put them aside to dry. Only trick there is you may need to run them thru the plate one last time to size them accurately.  That means you must make them over sized.
 
During my time as a restoration cabinetmaker I took apart many pieces of furniture and wondered about the shape of the pegs. It is my belief that they were made with a modicum of effort, the pegs were probably riven from straight grain  stock, the ends were tapered with a knife or chisel (we had a dowel plate with a conical hole in it for this purpose) I just knock the corners off. The pegs were driven into a round hole while they were square and whatever shape they have is imparted by the hole. The reason to use a square peg is because they fit better in round holes(despite psychological tests). A slightly undersized square peg will hold in a round hole, an undersized dowel will fall out. I am attaching a photo of a square peg that was driven in to a hole drilled with a shell auger, you can see that the peg has taken on the shape of the hole. I have read writings that propose that these pegs were planed to get that shape. Cabinetmakers in the 18th century weren't wasting time shaping pegs.
 

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Martin, there's another thread on this forum on the same topic:  http://www.sapfm.org/forum/index.php?topic=1359.msg5875#msg5875.  Most of the same points have been made in both threads, but there are some photos there that might be helpful. 
 
Thanks Mark!  I should have searched better before starting a dup thread!

Sorry to keep beating this horse...but is this a case where  one should use Hyde glue so it can be repaired?

martin
 
I'm with Siemsen. This is probably the thing they spent thee least time thinking about of all.
When I first started looking a furniture, the double comma shaped pins intrigued me, because I never saw them on reproductions, which usually  seemed to have been made by people who were determined to show that a square peg was used, and it should look square when it was done.
In the end , i found that if you drilled the hole with a spoon bit and drove in a riven pin, like Mike said, with a bluntly tapered end and a couple of the corners taken off, the result will be exactly like what you see in early work. I make all my pins on a bench hook with a chisel, and it takes about 10 seconds a pin.-Al
 
Original fall board and batten from 1798 in Winchester Virginia. Notice the crack at the top of the miter with no pins. As Al commented the crack comes from the fall board shrinking and the batten binding at the case when folded down. I have many other aspects of this desk which need to be commented upon. A truly great learning experience from earlier pieces made in the same cabinet shop. A school of it's own.
 

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