making backsaws

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M

msiemsen

Well-known member
Greetings,
I am wondering if anyone has made a backsaw and if they have any wisdom to offer. I am embarking on this adventure and would like to know. I have visited Leif Hanson's norsewoodsmith website and gotten some info from other sources, what do you guys know?
Mike
 
Hello Mike,

Well, I'm kinda embarrassed to admit I use Japanese saws.  But, 4 days no responses, so I have a suggestion.  Drop a line to Mike Wenzloff, who is a custom sawmaker living in Oregon.  Mike is supremely knowledgeable and practical, and I guarantee would be happy to talk saws with you.  Tell him what you're into, and he'll want to know about clocks also.

One of the big issues with saw-making is sawing the slit in the handle to receive the blade.  Then there's choice of blade material and hardness, how best to drill and inlet for the sawnuts, where to get the sawnuts, whether to slit or fold the backing (and where to get), plus all the teeth cutting, setting, sharpening details.

Trust me on this--email Mike:

Mike Wenzloff <mwenz@wenzloffandsons.com>

Mike's website:    http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/


Wiley
 
when I was an apprentice patternmaker I had to make one,with a depth stop. I can not remember it being very hard. but that was 30 years ago.
 
Hi Mike,

Sorry for coming to the party late.

I think Leif has the process pretty well laid out. Depending on how thick the steel is, and how many saws you intend on making, scoring and snaping the steel (do wear safety glasses) is a viable option. If the steel is thin enough (20 thou or less), high-quality shears will also cut it, but it is tough.

Wiley (hey, Wiley!) mentions the slot in the handle. Probably the easiest means is to use Alf's method as found in the Lee Valley newsletter a while back is most assured:
http://www.leevalley.com/newsletters/Woodworking/1/5/article3.htm

Shaping the handle is in that article as well. My little homage to handle shaping is here:
http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/kits/
A pdf of our handle kits is here:
http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/kits/Handsaw_kit_instructions2.pdf

If there is any way I can help, post a message and I would be glad to pop in.

Take care, Mike
 
Mike,
Thanks for the information on the backsaws. We are making 20 some saws so I am having the metal sheared and having the brass bent over the backs at a sheet metal shop that I do business with. The local saw filer will tooth and file so we just have to make handles. It can be difficult to get everybody together so this way they can take their saws home and finish the handles. I was debating making a circle saw blade from the blade stock and backing it up with flanges, not worth it for so few handles. I am making the split nuts because I can. I know yours are top notch. One of our members, Dean Jansa has some of your saws and likes them very much. Most of my questions now have to do with rake and pitch and fleam, a lot of which boils down to individual taste. a couple of the guys have Lie-Nielsen dovetail saws (15 ppi rip) and don't like them because they are hard to start in the cut. I think they need a bit of fleam on the first few teeth or maybe change the rake from 4 to 8 degrees or a bit of both. Dean is going to talk about saw filing. I am learning more about saws all the time. I just made some 2 1/4" dia. wooden bench screws, a bit of learning went on there too!
Mike

Trying to make a living at woodworking.
 
Hi Mike,

Any combination of the things you list will make the saws easier to start. Some combinations will have no perceptable loss in the speed of cutting.

The nice thing about saws is if you are not satisfied, it is easy to alter the tooth geometry.

As regards the 15 ppi...we (I) chose to do the Kenyon saws at 16 ppi. Some say they can tell the difference. But I don't think so. The main difference is the filing on a particular 15 ppi saw to a particular saw with 16 ppi. There is only 4.1 thousandths in the spacing of the tips of the teeth.

Any differences between the tooth spacing is easily made up by simply refiling them. If the saw is a skosh hard to start, say because one is using traditional thin sides for half blinds, light joint the teeth and when filing, ever so slightly rotate the file towards one's self (presuming one is standing behind the heel). Not agressive enough? Joint and rotate the file away and at the same time as the file is going across the tooth's face, pull file lightly into the tooth.

The thing I like about adding a couple degrees of fleam angle on a rip tooth profile is that one can also actually steepen the rake. The bit of fleam allows the teeth to enter and move through the wood easier, but the stronger rake in turn removes more wood in each pass. By a "bit of fleam" I mean around 2-2 1/2 degrees, alternating sides as one would do a cross cut. This angle doesn't have to be accurate. Does need to alternate side every other tooth, though. When looking down on the saw plate, file at 90 degrees across the plate, moving the handle back to yourself enough to see it is no longer 90 degrees is about right. Kinda like making a mitered frame that doesn't close. Even if the gap is covered, the eye can "see" the corner is off.

I suspect Dean's presentation will be the bee's knees. Wish I could be there. Recommend those with the LN saws to pay attention to Dean and have a go at customizing the filing of their saws.

In all, have fun making them. The shaping is probably the slowest and in some ways the most difficult aspect--but I find it the best part.

Take care, Mike
who is soon to embark making his first so-called period furniture...and will be asking more than one or two questions!
 
Well Mike we would surely enjoy seeing you there. Thanks for the dissertation on filing. that is pretty much what Dean had told me only more detail. I an see the art part of filing creeping in. Let us know how we can help with your furniture project.
Mike
 
Ha, don't know about dissertation, just throwing info out into the nether. Plenty of good things written about filing in general available, though. It's the tweaks that are overlooked.

One of these days I *have* to make it on the right side of the country. So many people to meet.

I keep bouncing around on which piece to build. Pretty taken with Phyfe. I've never really built things newer than in the early 20th century styles. Which is what seemed to sell best here. now that I don't have to make the mortgage from it, I finally get to build things with, well, docorative and refined sensibilities.

I've picked up some Carlyle Lynch plans. but I keep coming back to my books Adam C. recommended to me on Phyfe. Might try making a set of working drawings and wing it from there.

Thank you for the offer of help--I'm gonna need it. Which is why I actually registered. Gonna have to crack the check book open and join.

Mike
 
Mike,
Stop in the middle of the country on your way east. There are people to meet here too!
I have a couple more questions on backsaws. How much shorter should the back be than the plate on the handle end? We are making 19" tenon, 14" sash, 12" sash, 11" carcass and 9" dovetail.
We are folding the backs over the blades and they are a snug fit but not tight enough to keep the blade from creeping out during sawing. Is there a good work-around for this? I was even thinking double face tape or locktite. I don't expect any proprietary info. but any help you could give would be great.
thanks,
Mike
 
Hi Mike--so many people to see and places to go! I'm sure that if I get headed thatta way Ohio and other places will be hit.

Folded backs only work via tension. So the backs have to exert enough squeeze to keep the plate captured. This of course does a couple things. First and formost it keeps the thin plate from buckling/rippling in the cut itself. It also keeps the back itself in place and the plate from movement within the back.

The folded backs should have to be literally driven on. How much tension--the tightness of the grip on the plate--can also be too great to even install the back. So there is a range of from not tight enough to too tight.

When we make them, I flatten them in the press to an acute V where the open edges just meet. This V shape is still fairly wide at the fold, though. I then hammer the backs along the high part of the fold until it appears like below:

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/temp/folded_brass_0001.jpg

Or this one. Here the brass is shown after the acute bend on the press. From there, I bend it in a different press to that closed state. Next to it is one that is fully closed (nearly too much for all but DT and carcass saws (which these were for).

http://www.wenzloffandsons.com/saws/temp/brass_0001.jpg

We use .093" for the DT saws (like shown in the picture immediately above)and .125" for the carcass and up. Finished folded width ranges from 3/4" to 1".

I don't have the plate in the brass when either folding or hammering. I found I couldn't achieve a tight fit. Hammering is something that takes getting use to. I have a 1.25" x 16" x 24" piece of steel plate on my bench I use when hammering. An anvil would work but I found the shear size of the plate makes for quicker work as I can move along the fold faster. One must hammer from both sides and work the inevitable bend that hammering induces.

No worries about questions, there's little in saw making that I would consider secret.
 
Hi Mike, if I am following what you are asking, it depends on the handle style. On some, like the large Kenyon tenon and the sash saw, the backs are the same as the blade lengths at 19" and 14" respectively. On the DT, the back is about 3/4" less in length than the 9" blade.

Here's a group shot where you can make out the lengths in relation to the blade lengths (more or less).

http://wenzloffandsons.com/saws/tbt/kenyon_0002a.jpg

You can see if you follow the line of steel at the heel up through the handle on the DT and carcass saws that the rear edge of the backs are forward of that line, and the sash/lg tenon are even.

If you are asking about how far down on the blade the backs go, I keep about a 1/4" or so of room between the top edge of the blade and the inside of the fold on the backs.

If you would like a bit more detail, email me and I can help you out.

Take care, Mike
 
Mike Wenzloff,
Do you still offer kits on your tenon saws and is there a shorter lead time on them, than the finished saws?

Thanks, Tony Joyce
 
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