How was it done #1 Continued

[Paul]

This is in reply to the First How was it done back in February on cutting the grooves in curved tombstone doors for the panel, but as the website suggested I decided to start a new post.
Joe,
I have been looking into this for several weeks now and have not found an answer either but I will share with you what I have found.  I think the best way to do this is with a coachmakers plow plane.  If you have a copy of "The Handplane Book" by Garrett Hack he has a picture of one on page 218.  There is also one for sale at http://www.antiquetools.co.uk/tools.htm for a mear $1,900 us dollars.  This plane had a short curved skate to follow the curve.  It seems horse drawn carriages had a lot of frame and panel construction.  I have not been able to find one of these for sale at a reasonable price and I do not think they were ever made by a commercial plane maker like Stanley or any others.  The best I can find is that carriage makers had both the woodworkers to do the wood work and blacksmiths to do the metal work on the carriages all in the same workshop.  Therefore they had the two people there on the job to maker their own specialized tools.  There also is a tool called a coachmakers router which is shaped a lot like a spoke shave but with a blade sort of like what would be on a Stanley router plane.  I have found several of these for sale on Ebay and other websites for a more reasonable price.  Garrett Hack also in his book shows a Stanley 196 which is very rare and was used for cutting a rabbet on curves but I do not think it would do.  I think you and I are not the only woodworkers of the world who have tried to do this.  However, if you look at most of the frame and panel construction of most American and English work it is mostly linear.  I guess they used the "get-er-done" approach mentioned in one of the post when they did curves.  Like I said earlier I am trying to do French curved type panels which have both concave and convex curves.  This has been done in the past and I think more would be done today if there was a better tool available at a reasonable price.    Anyway back to the tools.  I tried a few things as an experiment.  Like you told me in an e-mail you tried a Stanley 66. I also tried a Stanley 66 with the router attachment.  The problems I had was with chatter since the blade is not supported like a plane blade while in the curve because you or really sort of cutting end grain.  I think these were designed to cut straight grain.  Also had problems with the radius of the sole of the 66 not matching the concave curve of the wood if the curve was tight.  It did let me at least scratch out a starting goove and from there I was able to cut the rest with chisels.  I tried the stanley router plane but that did not work because the sole of the plane has nothing to rest on.  After looking at the coachmakers routers and coachmakers plow planes I really think this is the way to go and I think the coachmakers plow is the best and here is why.  The coachmakers router is like a spoke shave and the blade is held in place with a wedge.  Here is a link to one for you to look at.  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320195328319&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=011  The problems I see with many of these is 1. some do not have a fence 2. they do not have a depth stop 3. the cutter is held by a wedge and would require I think constant adjustment to get to the depth of the cut.  I do not think you could set the blade at the full depth and get to cutting without it digging in.  That is why I think the coachmakers plow plane would be best.  It has 1. a curved skate like a regular plow plane to let you set the blade and keep cutting without any other adjustment 2. it has support for the blade to stop chatter. 3. it has a fence 4. it has a depth stop.  Now, where do I get one for less than $1,900!  I have a handled groove plane without the matching tounge plane of a set that I am thinking about cutting and modifiying to make it a coachmakers plow with a curved bottom and skate.  It has a 1/4 " blade and is made to cut T&G on 7/8" lumber.  I think I can remove the skates, cut the wood body to the shape I want and then grind the skate to the shape I want.  Anyway,  I know I got a little long winded on this but I do not have an answer yet that is inexpensive.  You might want to try one of the coachmakers routers and if the reshaping of my groove plane works I will send you pictures of the before and after of what I did.  You know, you can find all kinds of information on the internet and in books on the techniques used to make American furniture but try to find something on techniques of how French furniture was made.  Good luck and I will let you know if I find a good solution.
Paul

 

[chamfer]

Paul et al,

After a much internal debate and consulting Salaman's _Dictionary of Tools_ I've finally decided that it might be useful to follow up on your post.

With regard to the use of a compass/coachmaker's plough for creating the grooves in curved door rails, the first issue which comes to mind is the inevitable and radical grain reversal one encounters in such situations. This would, I believe, necessitate the use of the plough plane in two different directions. Which, in turn, involves registering the fence on the non-reference face of the rail. Also, unless the groove were perfectly centered, it could involve changing the fence setting. If the rail was perfectly uniform in thickness and the groove perfectly centered, the use of the coachmaker's plough plane might be relatively straightforward. Otherwise, it could become relatively tedious - especially when dealing with the area of transition.

Which is why, according to Salaman, many of the specialty tools for working curves, especially coachmaker's routers, came in pairs. Per Salaman, the grooving routers came with a fence, and with cutters ranging from 1/8" to 1/4", and were used specifically for creating curved grooves to take panels and glass. They had a "hooked" type cutter which, I believe (though I haven't used one), could be set for final depth and worked down to that depth with rolling type cuts. With a pair of these, one could work both directions and register both their fences on the reference face of the rail.

Other tools which might be relevant are the "jigger," or side router (which replaced the pistol router about 1850), and the continental jigger (also known as a coachmaker's plough or grooving router). All of these are described as being used to cut grooves in curved coach members to take panels, etc.

The boxing, or check, router, though appearing similar to the grooving router, differs in that it does not have a fence, and its blades range from 1/4" to 3/4" in width. These were used only for finishing rebates to final depths. The tool at the second link in your post appears to be of this type, so is not particularly relevent to creating grooves.

Finally, as I suggested in the previous thread, I believe a quirk router could also be used in this application. One advantage of this tool is that the blade can be reversed to work both directions without having to reset the fence, and while continuing to register it on the reference face of the rail.

Having said all this, it is not clear to me that cabinetmakers historically used any of these tools for doing this kind of work during the 18th and early 19th centuries. Possibly because such work was only sporadic? In which case, they may very well have treated such grooves as long shallow mortises and methodically chopped out the bulk of the waste with repetitive chisel cuts - as was suggested in the previous thread. I've done that and know it's quite manageable, though it can be a bit tedious.

If people are intrigued with making tools and/or anticipate doing much of this kind of work, I think they could well enjoy making and experimenting with one or more (pairs) of these specialized routers. If it is a matter of historical accuracy, then they may not be relevant. Pursuant to that, I'd be interested in learning about any evidence that cabinetmakers regularly adopted any of these specialized tools for this type of work.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR