MarkHochstein
Active member
Do you believe that spray finishing is appropriate on period furniture? Would it make a difference if it was a "reproduction" versus a just a period style piece that was not necessarily a reproduction?
Hand Finishing vs Spray Finishing
- Thread starter MarkHochstein
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IMHO this is the type of question that does work well with multiple choice. I am currently working on my kitchen for which new high tech finishes are defiantly the way to go, but would not use them on furniture. It also depends on if you enjoy finishing or if you make furniture to eat or eat to make furniture. I have seen what Jeff Headley can do with spraying shellac and it is an amazing finish.
martin
martin
Mickey Callahan
Well-known member
Hi Mark,
Spraying shellac is not difficult and I have done it many times on period furniture. The issue for me is "time is money". A shellac finish can be built up quickly by spraying. With that said, alot will depend on your skill, the spray system (I prefer an HVLP system) and the environment you work in (proper ventillation, etc.). If you can satisfy all the variables, then spraying will look just as great on period furniture. Only you'll know the difference.
Mickey
Spraying shellac is not difficult and I have done it many times on period furniture. The issue for me is "time is money". A shellac finish can be built up quickly by spraying. With that said, alot will depend on your skill, the spray system (I prefer an HVLP system) and the environment you work in (proper ventillation, etc.). If you can satisfy all the variables, then spraying will look just as great on period furniture. Only you'll know the difference.
Mickey
Mark Bortner
Well-known member
Martin, the solvent for shellac is alcohol which is middle of the road when handling it but atomize it through a gun and it becomes super volatile! I've heard so many times that "I'll never spray anything but water base in my booth"..... really? Seriously? Once someone has a booth it becomes THE destination for anything smelly. As I've said in other posts a booth in a residence is all the reason most insurance companies need to drop your claim like a hot potato. Is it really worth the risk? If you can, get one of those little garden sheds and finish in it.
Actually, the survey seems to miss the option that I happen to favor, using only hand finishing but largely using modern gel finishes applied by hand. It provides a way to have more durable - survives sitting a cocktail glass on the top - finishes for furniture that lives with chldren, pets, and guests. Actually, I have actually used high-end marine varnish as the top coat on my dining room table that is otherwise a pretty authentic reproduction.
That makes me a "always hand finishes, but not because I am using period materials".
Karl
That makes me a "always hand finishes, but not because I am using period materials".
Karl
dkeller_nc
Well-known member
One comment that many mght be interested in hearing - Shellac is not nearly so perishable as a film finish as WW texts would have you believe. I did a few tests on its durability for a kitchen island top I built for a friend. Specifically, I coated some cherry samples with 6 coats of hand-brushed shellac dissolved from flakes, then poured mountain dew, beer, wine and water on the samples, and left them overnight. The next morning, I wiped off the samples with a dampened cloth and looked for damage. There was none - there was no distinguishable water mark, and the surface had an even sheen on all of the samples. Thinking that the liquid might've evaporated fairly quickly, I performed the same test except I used paper towels soaked with the liquids, and left them in contact with the shellac surface overnight in a plastic bag to prevent evaporation. Same result - no damage.
Based on these tests, I finished the cherry kitchen island top with about 10 coats of shellac (that were sanded and smoothed about every 3 coats). That was about a year and a half ago. Despite daily use, and in a family with 3 children, there has been virtually no detectable damage to the finish on the top. The only exception was a ring left by an extremely hot coffe cup placed directly on the surface - and that damage was incredibly easy to sand out and repair.
I suspect that one of the keys to getting this kind of performance out of shellac is to carefully evaluate the condition of the flakes when you get them - I've had flakes that were sticky and much of it refused to dissolve in denatured alcohol. That material just didn't cut it as a finish - it would never get hard, even after a few days. So I pitched it in the trash and ordered a pound from Joel at Tools for Working Wood. He'd determined that high storage humidities and generally bad handling had affected most stocks of shellac flakes during that year, and had worked with his supplier to obtain some much more carefully treated material.
That material yielded the surfaces that I experimented with, and ultimately used to finish the kitchen island top.
Based on these tests, I finished the cherry kitchen island top with about 10 coats of shellac (that were sanded and smoothed about every 3 coats). That was about a year and a half ago. Despite daily use, and in a family with 3 children, there has been virtually no detectable damage to the finish on the top. The only exception was a ring left by an extremely hot coffe cup placed directly on the surface - and that damage was incredibly easy to sand out and repair.
I suspect that one of the keys to getting this kind of performance out of shellac is to carefully evaluate the condition of the flakes when you get them - I've had flakes that were sticky and much of it refused to dissolve in denatured alcohol. That material just didn't cut it as a finish - it would never get hard, even after a few days. So I pitched it in the trash and ordered a pound from Joel at Tools for Working Wood. He'd determined that high storage humidities and generally bad handling had affected most stocks of shellac flakes during that year, and had worked with his supplier to obtain some much more carefully treated material.
That material yielded the surfaces that I experimented with, and ultimately used to finish the kitchen island top.
Shellac and alcohol ???
I happen to be a big fan of shellac, and I use it on almost every piece I build, albeit essentially as a sealer, I just love what amber shellac does to cherry.
However, for a kitchen counter top, am I wrong to be worried that alcohol might be present at some time and cause a breakdown of a pure shellac finish ?
Karl
I happen to be a big fan of shellac, and I use it on almost every piece I build, albeit essentially as a sealer, I just love what amber shellac does to cherry.
However, for a kitchen counter top, am I wrong to be worried that alcohol might be present at some time and cause a breakdown of a pure shellac finish ?
Karl
MarkHochstein
Active member
Thanks for all the responses guys. I was just wondering what the attitude was towards using modern finishes and/or modern application systems (spraying) on period furniture. I've been using a little Earlex 5000 HVLP sprayer for about two years and like spraying enough that I'm stepping up to a full-sized compressor and conversion gun. I'm seriously considering framing off an area of the attic of my shop for finishing - we'll see.
I would like to comment about shellac's durability. I agree that shellac is more durable than it gets credit for. It may stand up well to a variety of liquids but 30 seconds of a hot coffee cup placed on the surface will cause it to bubble up and require refinishing. Sure, shellac has the reputation of being easy to repair, but it's still a pain. I wouldn't recommend shellac for any kitchen horizontal surfaces.
Howard Steier M.D.
Howard Steier M.D.
dkeller_nc
Well-known member
Karl - Howard is correct - shellac will not stand up to high heat. Note that's high heat - somewhere quite close to the boiling point.
However, one should not be putting something that hot on a wooden surface anyway, and the other common film finishes that a woodworker might apply such as polyurethane, acrylic laquer, and alkyd varnish also will not stand up well to high heat. The only film finish that I'm aware of that will stand up to almost anything is conversion varnish - essentially an epoxy.
The strong advantage that shellac and acrylic laquer have over all of the other common film finishes is that they are solvent-soluble, so they're actually repairable.
Regardign alcohol resistance - a good, well-cured hard shellac finish will stand up to alcohol strengths found in wine and beer. Perhaps not to whiskey, vodka or tequila, though I suspect the approximately 50% alcohol content of those would still result in little, if any, damage if quickly wiped up. Grain alcohol, however, would be another thing - I would imagine it would cut through a shellac finish almost instantly.
However, one should not be putting something that hot on a wooden surface anyway, and the other common film finishes that a woodworker might apply such as polyurethane, acrylic laquer, and alkyd varnish also will not stand up well to high heat. The only film finish that I'm aware of that will stand up to almost anything is conversion varnish - essentially an epoxy.
The strong advantage that shellac and acrylic laquer have over all of the other common film finishes is that they are solvent-soluble, so they're actually repairable.
Regardign alcohol resistance - a good, well-cured hard shellac finish will stand up to alcohol strengths found in wine and beer. Perhaps not to whiskey, vodka or tequila, though I suspect the approximately 50% alcohol content of those would still result in little, if any, damage if quickly wiped up. Grain alcohol, however, would be another thing - I would imagine it would cut through a shellac finish almost instantly.
Au contraire.
After the dining table surface that had a shellac finish that bubbled up after the infamous coffee cup incident, I stripped and refinished the top with Minwax brushed polyurethane. I have enjoyed innumerable cups of coffee (close to the boiling point) on that table since then without incident. Now I wouldn't put a frying pan fresh from the stove directly on the table, but hot dishes from the stove and the oven placed on a potholder on the tabletop have caused no problems.
Howard Steier
After the dining table surface that had a shellac finish that bubbled up after the infamous coffee cup incident, I stripped and refinished the top with Minwax brushed polyurethane. I have enjoyed innumerable cups of coffee (close to the boiling point) on that table since then without incident. Now I wouldn't put a frying pan fresh from the stove directly on the table, but hot dishes from the stove and the oven placed on a potholder on the tabletop have caused no problems.
Howard Steier
Adam Cherubini
Well-known member
Mark,
I would discourage you from investing a lot of money and effort in spray equipment. Sooner or later, someone is going to convince you period furniture doesn't look good with a sprayed finish (I can think of several examples) and you may feel bad about your expenditure. I think the same thing about many woodworking machines (but not all, even tho I don't use any).
Adam
I would discourage you from investing a lot of money and effort in spray equipment. Sooner or later, someone is going to convince you period furniture doesn't look good with a sprayed finish (I can think of several examples) and you may feel bad about your expenditure. I think the same thing about many woodworking machines (but not all, even tho I don't use any).
Adam
My 2 cents- learn both hand finishing and spray finishing. Then learn how to make spray finishing look like hand finishing. Each piece for me is different, some I spray, some by hand. FOr some clients they want durability and that usually means spraying.
BUT, time equals money and I would rather spray a set of chairs for example then sit there and pad/brush them and if you think you can do it faster by hand your insane.
BUT, time equals money and I would rather spray a set of chairs for example then sit there and pad/brush them and if you think you can do it faster by hand your insane.
MarkHochstein
Active member
Adam Cherubini said:
Adam,
I have seen many period furniture pieces with a sprayed finish that look fantastic - some of Glen Huey's work comes to mind. Do they look like a reproduction finish no, but they still look great. I have applied all my finishes by hand for years and I feel pretty comfortable with almost all of them. The only finish I don't have a lot of experience with is lacquer. Having said that, I build a lot more than just period furniture - even though that's my passion. With two young children I've been building an awful lot of utilitarian furniture and spraying that stuff has saved a lot of time!
I know you fall securely in the "I use period finishing techniques" camp - heck you even use period tools and wear period clothes! This is a subject that I have fought with myself over and I finally decided that if I'm doing an actual reproduction of a piece then I will try to use the finishing techniques and finishes that are appropriate for the piece, but if I'm building a period style piece that is not a reproduction then I'm not going to limit myself. That doesn't mean I won't still use period finishing techniques if it's appropriate, I'm just not tying my own hands.
I find it interesting that people that restore cars have a completely different perspective on this. They will go to great lengths to obtain original parts and even paint the car original colors, but I've never heard any of my restorer friends say that they had any interest in trying to use period correct paint products. They are always looking for the best looking, longest lasting finish they can find.
For me this is not a money issue, it's a philosophy issue and that's why I asked the question. I wanted to get a feeling for what the philosophical thoughts were of the members here.
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