Hammer veneering with hide glue

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HSteier

Well-known member
I have done a little hammer veneering with hide glue using commercially available veneers. Does this technique work with (bandsaw) sawn veneer which is significantly thicker than comercially available veneer? Was 18th century sawn veneer 'hammered" or did they use some sort of press? Has anyone used hide glue to attach sawn veneer?

Howard Steier
 
Roubo shows veneer presses.  We can assume they used these.  Not all 18th c veneers are super thick.  Some are close to our veneers in thickness.  I suspect that may be the result of refinishing attempts but I was told otherwise.  Constantine's sells .100" thick veneers.  I veneered the inside of my standing desk with this.  I also tried sawing out my own mahogany and played with that some.  I don't have much experience veneering but what little I've done, I didn't see a ton of difference technically between the various thicknesses.  Its harder to knife through the thick veneers, as the thickness of the knife blade can compress the wood on either side of the cut.

Adam
 
I'm hardly an expert, but the only veneering I've ever done is hammering. I've used both commercial and stuff I've resawn myself.

I find the thicker stuff easier to work with. I make mine a thin 1/16 or fat 1/32.

For flat veneering with not to figured grain there is no noticable difference to me. But on the crotch pieces I've tried, I've had problems with the thin comercial stuff ripping. You have to use a real light touch and work it a little differently.

When I saw my own crotch pieces I have not had much trouble. only a little cracking (And not much of that).

Plus On thicker venners you don't have to worry about blow through as much while scraping, I've even planed the veneered surfaces.
 
Another question gents.
When I've done hammer veneering with hide glue using commercially available veneer  I have veneered both sides of the substrate. I invariably get warpage after the first side is veneered which comes back to neutral after the second side is done. What about thicker veneers? Have you practitioners veneered both sides? Does the thicker veneer reduce or limit warpage if only done on one side?

Howard Steier
 
Howard, I have done quite a bit of veneering; all flat panels, ie table tops, tops and end panels of case goods, etc. I use marine plywood  with a 1" to 1 1/2" wide piece of solid stuff glued to each edge as a substrate. I most always veneer both sides, though a few times, if I dont care if a plywood surface shows I will only veneer one side. I've never had any warpage. But I guess you're not likely to get warpage with a mostly plywood substrate. You dont mention what your substrate is.
 
PS Howard. I forgot to mention that I use a veneer glue and a veneer press(the old fasioned kind with press screws). I have a couple pieces in my house with veneered surfaces that I built 40+ years ago. No problems.
John McAlister
 
Hi Howard et al,

You have gotten some good practical responses, to which I have nothing meaningful to add. I've hammered very small areas of sawn veneers in doing repair work, but that hardly constitutes enough experience to give advice.

But, regarding your specific question,  " ... Was 18th century sawn veneer 'hammered" or did they use some sort of press? ...", I thought it might be of some interest to quote a few sentences from Peter Nicholson's _Practical Carpentry, Joinery, and Cabinet-Making_, c. 1826. At that time, sawn veneer was clearly in use, as evidenced by a part of the text, itself:

                                        *************

    "... Veneering is the art of laying down with glue a very thin piece of wood, of a fine quality, called a veneer, upon common wood. Veneers are laid either by means of a tool called a veneering-hammer, or by cauls.
    " In veneering with the hammer, the ground should be warmed at the fire, and the outside of the veneer being wetted with warm water, or thin glue, with a sponge, and the side to be laid covered with a coat of thin glue, and warmed at a fire, the veneer is to be quickly laid on the ground and worked by the hammer, and commencing at one end, work from the middle to each side till neither air nor glue will come out.
    "The object of veneering is cheapness, by saving beautiful wood; otherwise it would have no advantage, for the ground, glue, and extra time, are fully equivalent to the expense of plain solid wood. Veneering with the hammer answers very well, when veneers are tolerably straight and even; but this is rarely the case with finely-figured woods, hence it is necessary to employ another method called veneering with a caul.
    " ... A Caul is made out of solid wood, shaped to the surface to be veneered, and being well heated, and afterwards oiled and greased, it is screwed down upon the veneer, and by the pressure and its heat sends out the glue, causing the veneer to bed close to the ground. For curved surfaces, sometimes thin wainscot is used for cauls, and, by heat, made to bend to the crooked surface. In general, cauls of one-inch deal, keyed across to keep them straight with wainscot, are used for card-table tops.
    "Various opinions are held regarding the use of cauls, but where the veneer is of a nature to admit of being laid by the hammer, we would prefer it.
    "If a caul be employed, the veneer must necessarily be rendered of a very uniform thickness; or, wherever there is a thin place the glue will collect, and, consequently, the veneer be imperfectly laid, and liable to blister. In order to heat the cauls regularly and sufficiently, a large hot-plate is employed by some cabinet-makers. A hot-plate consists of a thick plate of cast-iron, with a furnace-fire below it. One heated by steam is more safe, and not liable to over-heat ... .
    ...
    "Whether veneers be laid with the hammer, or by cauls, the superfluous glue and the air must be driven out, and the veneer prevented from rising in parts, where it had warped in seasoning; much, however, of the trouble which crooked veneers occasion might be avoided by having them kepth straight from the time of cutting till they be wanted. Veneered work should never be suffered to dry very quickly."

                                *******************

I'm tempted to undertake a little commentary, but have decided to let people to read it as it stands. Hope this has been of some interest. Historically, at least.

Don McConnell
Eureka Springs, AR
 
John,
I plane with a sharp hand plane, And only the final finish passes.

I guess this is where my inexperiance shows. I didn't know I wasn't supposed to do that! But to date I haven't had any problems.
 
Thanks to all.

Nicholson's comments are fascinating. I've learned most of the same hide glue veneering techniques/information but mostly by trial and error.

Howard Steier
 
Ttalma: Using a plane on a veneered surface is certainly not a sign of inexperience but rather a tribute to your skill with a plane! My final stroke on a veneered surface is with a scraper; or more often, 240 grit sandpaper! John McA.
 

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