I have a grandfather clock kit that I assembled, stained, and finished over thirty years ago. I was much younger then, and I unfortunately applied a very dark oil based stain over a perfectly matched solid black walnut carcase. To that I applied tung oil and varnish. Now I need to strip the finish down to the original bare wood and start over. Is there an all in one liquid stripper that can be applied that will remove the finish and stain in one step. I have heard that there are products that can be sprayed on and hosed off...that's what I thinik would be the easiest for me. Any thoughts on this topic would be appreciated.
Furniture stripper
- Thread starter carden
- Start date
You are reading the forum of the Society of American Period Furniture Makers — people who build and study American period furniture.
Membership brings the whole forum, the annual journal and quarterly magazine, the members’ gallery and workbench, and chapters across the country. About membership
Jeff L Headley
Well-known member
Not that I would ever use it but Kutzit works well. Or at least that's what I have been told. Varnish is a very hard finish to remove from what I've been told. Your statement of taking it back to original condition all went out the window when you applied your oil stain but the remover(again from what I've been told) should remove some of the paint pigments in the oil stain. Shellac is probably your easiest finish to remove then maybe lacquers then your varnishes. What have you used to polish this clock? Some polishes that contain silicon can penetrate many finishes to cause what is called orange peel when applying a new finish. Orange peel is where your finish will dry in one spot and weep away to cause little craters which give you an uneven surface. From what I've been told. Try applying a coat of remover and let it sit. Once your finish crinkles try removing most of it with a softer piece of wood as not to mar the surface. Apply a second coat and wipe off with rough shavings from your planer. This process should not be used on period pieces from what I've been told. Watch your eyes this stuff is nasty. Please do this in a well ventilated area from what I've been told.
Here's a list of things I've been told about stripping finishes off of wood.
1. Some oil based stains contain both pigment and dye. Most Methylene chloride strippers will remove most of the pigment but not the dye. You will need to bleach the wood to remove the dye if your stain contained dye.
2. The thin, wax release strippers are stronger and work faster than the gelled versions.
3. All strippers work geometrically faster and better if heated to about 78 degrees. Ive heard there are electrically heated steel buckets for this purpose.
4. If you use water wash stripper don't wash with a garden hose, it's too much water the water may damage your clock. For water wash stripper there are low pressure, low water, pressure washers that barely wet the item you are stripping. They still raise the grain and cause the need for a lot off sanding.
5. The shaving and saw dust method works well. If you don't have enough you can buy bales of pet bedding at pet stores.
6. Apply stripper, let it sit, apply stripper, let it sit continue this process until the finish is completely dissolved, then scrub with hands full of shavings. The shavings act like steel wool and also soak up the stripper. With this method there is almost no need to scrape.
Lots of info at this site.
http://kwickkleen.com/
1. Some oil based stains contain both pigment and dye. Most Methylene chloride strippers will remove most of the pigment but not the dye. You will need to bleach the wood to remove the dye if your stain contained dye.
2. The thin, wax release strippers are stronger and work faster than the gelled versions.
3. All strippers work geometrically faster and better if heated to about 78 degrees. Ive heard there are electrically heated steel buckets for this purpose.
4. If you use water wash stripper don't wash with a garden hose, it's too much water the water may damage your clock. For water wash stripper there are low pressure, low water, pressure washers that barely wet the item you are stripping. They still raise the grain and cause the need for a lot off sanding.
5. The shaving and saw dust method works well. If you don't have enough you can buy bales of pet bedding at pet stores.
6. Apply stripper, let it sit, apply stripper, let it sit continue this process until the finish is completely dissolved, then scrub with hands full of shavings. The shavings act like steel wool and also soak up the stripper. With this method there is almost no need to scrape.
Lots of info at this site.
http://kwickkleen.com/
Hi Carden
Jeff and Millcrek [ is it Tom] are on the right track but in your case, I think I would change a couple things. First , If there is veneer,inlays,or if it.is a decent piece of furniture, don't use water! Water is too hard on the case and the joints, and the effects of the water will just give you more trouble. Bix was one of the best strippers on the market. But unfortunately when the Barr Corporation bought them out they discontinued the Bix line. What was nice about the Bix line is it was not only water wash, it neutralized in water. So if you got any on your skin, the burning would only last as long as it took for your body chemistry to neutralize it. Most good strippers (strong) contain Methylene Chloride, few are water wash and for a clock case you are going to need something with a solvent wash. I use to use hi pressure water when I was in the boat repair business it was the only way to do it. But for your clock, the dark color is under the varnish, so by removing the varnish only, the color will still be there. You need to mechanically remove the varnish from the pores to get to the color. Of course you do not want to use steel wool especially on woods that contain high tanic acid, like oak. Steel particles trapped in the pores will slowly turn black in about six months. We call this restorers revenge. You need to get a brass bristled brush, the ones used for barbecue grills work well. Apply the stripper (preferably something in a semi-paste) to the clock case and let it sit. If the stripper drys out apply more. Do this until you can physically move the finish from the surface with your paint brush applicator. Biggest mistake people make when stripping furniture is they don't let the stripper do its work. The varnish that is on your clock may take between 1/2 hour to an hour to soften. If the stripper drys out it has stopped working. When you think you have everything dissolved, in an unseen corner, use your brass brush and lightly with the grain, rub the surface and see if it is lifting the color. Now here is the tricky part, depending upon how much varnish is on the surface, you may have to remove the varnish first, and then re-apply another coat of stripper to go after the color. Unfortunately I am not there to advise if you would have to do the second application or not. If the color is starting to lift with the brass brush, you can go ahead and scrub the whole surface with the grain. I use a three inch wide putty knife at a low angle to remove the residue. With most of the residue removed you must decide whether or not to apply more stripper to go after the color. If you think the color is pulled out to your liking, I would take lacquer thinner and a cloth, and saturate the surface dissolving any remaining residue. Use plenty of clean rags and discard as they become full. Remember these rags are extremely flammable and the fumes are not so good for you either. Cross ventilation, respirators, eye protection, gloves, and anything else for safety should be used. When I complete the stripping I take the residue and the rags out of the shop as soon as possible. This is considered hazardous waste and should be treated as such. After the lacquer thinner drys, which is pretty fast, you will notice you have raised grain because of the brush, and I am sorry to say there is no way around re-sanding the piece. The hand full of shavings that these guys are talking about are mainly used on delicate pieces that have been topped coated with other finishes. If you did not have a problem with color the shavings would work just fine. Although I do not use the shavings method in my shop, because it is just too messy. Also remember if you are working with historical pieces, you would need to come up with other methods that stripping. We were always told back in school,(some 30 years ago,how can it be that long ago?) that the best time to strip a piece of furniture was if someone had already stripped the piece and changed the finish before you got there. I don't strip furniture very often, because I work on High End Antiques, and I am trained to save what is there. But in my early years in the business I did my share of it. I cannot say enough, be careful! Hope this helps. Randy
Jeff and Millcrek [ is it Tom] are on the right track but in your case, I think I would change a couple things. First , If there is veneer,inlays,or if it.is a decent piece of furniture, don't use water! Water is too hard on the case and the joints, and the effects of the water will just give you more trouble. Bix was one of the best strippers on the market. But unfortunately when the Barr Corporation bought them out they discontinued the Bix line. What was nice about the Bix line is it was not only water wash, it neutralized in water. So if you got any on your skin, the burning would only last as long as it took for your body chemistry to neutralize it. Most good strippers (strong) contain Methylene Chloride, few are water wash and for a clock case you are going to need something with a solvent wash. I use to use hi pressure water when I was in the boat repair business it was the only way to do it. But for your clock, the dark color is under the varnish, so by removing the varnish only, the color will still be there. You need to mechanically remove the varnish from the pores to get to the color. Of course you do not want to use steel wool especially on woods that contain high tanic acid, like oak. Steel particles trapped in the pores will slowly turn black in about six months. We call this restorers revenge. You need to get a brass bristled brush, the ones used for barbecue grills work well. Apply the stripper (preferably something in a semi-paste) to the clock case and let it sit. If the stripper drys out apply more. Do this until you can physically move the finish from the surface with your paint brush applicator. Biggest mistake people make when stripping furniture is they don't let the stripper do its work. The varnish that is on your clock may take between 1/2 hour to an hour to soften. If the stripper drys out it has stopped working. When you think you have everything dissolved, in an unseen corner, use your brass brush and lightly with the grain, rub the surface and see if it is lifting the color. Now here is the tricky part, depending upon how much varnish is on the surface, you may have to remove the varnish first, and then re-apply another coat of stripper to go after the color. Unfortunately I am not there to advise if you would have to do the second application or not. If the color is starting to lift with the brass brush, you can go ahead and scrub the whole surface with the grain. I use a three inch wide putty knife at a low angle to remove the residue. With most of the residue removed you must decide whether or not to apply more stripper to go after the color. If you think the color is pulled out to your liking, I would take lacquer thinner and a cloth, and saturate the surface dissolving any remaining residue. Use plenty of clean rags and discard as they become full. Remember these rags are extremely flammable and the fumes are not so good for you either. Cross ventilation, respirators, eye protection, gloves, and anything else for safety should be used. When I complete the stripping I take the residue and the rags out of the shop as soon as possible. This is considered hazardous waste and should be treated as such. After the lacquer thinner drys, which is pretty fast, you will notice you have raised grain because of the brush, and I am sorry to say there is no way around re-sanding the piece. The hand full of shavings that these guys are talking about are mainly used on delicate pieces that have been topped coated with other finishes. If you did not have a problem with color the shavings would work just fine. Although I do not use the shavings method in my shop, because it is just too messy. Also remember if you are working with historical pieces, you would need to come up with other methods that stripping. We were always told back in school,(some 30 years ago,how can it be that long ago?) that the best time to strip a piece of furniture was if someone had already stripped the piece and changed the finish before you got there. I don't strip furniture very often, because I work on High End Antiques, and I am trained to save what is there. But in my early years in the business I did my share of it. I cannot say enough, be careful! Hope this helps. Randy
jacon4
Well-known member
OH BOY, we have stumbled into the refinish, do not refinish wars, i did some research on the origins of this war several years ago and this is what I came up with as to how all this started.
The "original surface" fetish started in america during the 1970s when a relatively obscure art history professor, John T. Kirk, wrote a book with a chapter titled "Buy It Ratty And Leave It Alone". Mr Kirk was trying to stop the then disgraceful practice of some who were stripping PAINTED furniture in an attempt to sell it as something else. Naturally, some dealers/collectors took what was a good thing and turned it into a bad thing. In 2000, Kirk published an article in The Magazine Antiques commenting on the movement he inadvertently started 30 years before. Below are some excerpts from that article.
"In this article I wish to explore in detail the evolving understanding of what is today near the top of the list of questions most scholars, dealers, and collectors ask themselves when looking at an early piece: Is the surface original, and if so, how should it be treated?
In 1975 I wrote in The Impecunious Collector's Guide to American Antiques a chapter entitled "Buy It Ratty and Leave It Alone," addressing the then-current practice of removing original paint and its patina from furniture."
"Many seventeenth- and eighteenth-century painted pieces were made of two or more woods because each had a special structural quality needed in the design. A windsor chair, for example, might employ maple for the turned stretchers, legs, and supports under the fronts of the arms because its closed-grain character turned beautifully; pine, yellow poplar, or another soft wood made the shaping of the saddle seat easy; and springy ash or hickory might be used for the back spokes and top rail. A unifying coat of paint gave the chair a strong silhouette while covering the varying colors and grain patterns of the woods. The late nineteenth-and twentieth-century collectors who stripped the old paint, and the reproducers of early forms, reveled in the contrasts the different woods produced."
"After I wrote "Buy It Ratty and Leave It Alone," many collectors, and therefore dealers, took the ideas it expressed seriously, and, for a time, an untouched, grungy surface became more in demand, and even came to be known as a "Kirk surface."
"During the late 1970s and early 1980s the love and monetary worth of the ratty and dirty expanded from painted furniture to pieces that were highly styled and made to show off expensive woods, such as walnut, cherry, and mahogany. By the late 1990s the acceptance of the grungy was so widespread that on December 10, 1999, the Wall Street Journal ran an article entitled "Collecting, Today's Art Lesson: Grime Pays," with a subheading announcing "A Status Symbol: Filthy Furniture."
"The presence of dirty varnish on an object made to exhibit grain color and pattern as well as carving and pattern can help determine if parts have been changed, but it may unnecessarily reduce our ability to appreciate the maker's original vision."
"Dirt on a painted piece almost always means leaving it alone, for any cleaning normally diminishes the quality of the surface, but what about high-style pieces? Should they ever be cleaned of dirty varnish so that one can more dearly see the intention of the maker?"
"Thus, what to clean is really a two-part question. Painted pieces usually should not be touched because their surfaces are like those of early bronzes, where the original finish has become pitted, encrusted, and discolored, and we generally accept that it cannot be altered. In most cases it is even inadvisable to remove the finishing coat of varnish given to many painted pieces to make them brighter and easier to clean: in most cases the paint, varnish, and dirt cannot be separated from one another and leave a surface worth looking at. On the other hand, objects that were originally covered with a clear varnish to enhance and give a gloss to beautiful wood can be cleaned and revarnished without diminishing the maker's final aesthetic statement. (Undoubtedly, one of the reasons the cleaning of varnished pieces became unfashionable is that in the past many objects were ruined by drastic overcleaning.) Museums will probably take the lead in such cleaning, and there will undoubtedly be an outcry against it, as happened when restorers began to remove much of the famous golden light from Rembrandt's paintings by cleaning away yellowed varnish."
" The present high value of a dirty varnish on beautiful wood will diminish when connoisseurs begin to want to see clearly the maker's original choice of materials and design features and the glowing patina the wood has achieved."
The "original surface" fetish started in america during the 1970s when a relatively obscure art history professor, John T. Kirk, wrote a book with a chapter titled "Buy It Ratty And Leave It Alone". Mr Kirk was trying to stop the then disgraceful practice of some who were stripping PAINTED furniture in an attempt to sell it as something else. Naturally, some dealers/collectors took what was a good thing and turned it into a bad thing. In 2000, Kirk published an article in The Magazine Antiques commenting on the movement he inadvertently started 30 years before. Below are some excerpts from that article.
"In this article I wish to explore in detail the evolving understanding of what is today near the top of the list of questions most scholars, dealers, and collectors ask themselves when looking at an early piece: Is the surface original, and if so, how should it be treated?
In 1975 I wrote in The Impecunious Collector's Guide to American Antiques a chapter entitled "Buy It Ratty and Leave It Alone," addressing the then-current practice of removing original paint and its patina from furniture."
"Many seventeenth- and eighteenth-century painted pieces were made of two or more woods because each had a special structural quality needed in the design. A windsor chair, for example, might employ maple for the turned stretchers, legs, and supports under the fronts of the arms because its closed-grain character turned beautifully; pine, yellow poplar, or another soft wood made the shaping of the saddle seat easy; and springy ash or hickory might be used for the back spokes and top rail. A unifying coat of paint gave the chair a strong silhouette while covering the varying colors and grain patterns of the woods. The late nineteenth-and twentieth-century collectors who stripped the old paint, and the reproducers of early forms, reveled in the contrasts the different woods produced."
"After I wrote "Buy It Ratty and Leave It Alone," many collectors, and therefore dealers, took the ideas it expressed seriously, and, for a time, an untouched, grungy surface became more in demand, and even came to be known as a "Kirk surface."
"During the late 1970s and early 1980s the love and monetary worth of the ratty and dirty expanded from painted furniture to pieces that were highly styled and made to show off expensive woods, such as walnut, cherry, and mahogany. By the late 1990s the acceptance of the grungy was so widespread that on December 10, 1999, the Wall Street Journal ran an article entitled "Collecting, Today's Art Lesson: Grime Pays," with a subheading announcing "A Status Symbol: Filthy Furniture."
"The presence of dirty varnish on an object made to exhibit grain color and pattern as well as carving and pattern can help determine if parts have been changed, but it may unnecessarily reduce our ability to appreciate the maker's original vision."
"Dirt on a painted piece almost always means leaving it alone, for any cleaning normally diminishes the quality of the surface, but what about high-style pieces? Should they ever be cleaned of dirty varnish so that one can more dearly see the intention of the maker?"
"Thus, what to clean is really a two-part question. Painted pieces usually should not be touched because their surfaces are like those of early bronzes, where the original finish has become pitted, encrusted, and discolored, and we generally accept that it cannot be altered. In most cases it is even inadvisable to remove the finishing coat of varnish given to many painted pieces to make them brighter and easier to clean: in most cases the paint, varnish, and dirt cannot be separated from one another and leave a surface worth looking at. On the other hand, objects that were originally covered with a clear varnish to enhance and give a gloss to beautiful wood can be cleaned and revarnished without diminishing the maker's final aesthetic statement. (Undoubtedly, one of the reasons the cleaning of varnished pieces became unfashionable is that in the past many objects were ruined by drastic overcleaning.) Museums will probably take the lead in such cleaning, and there will undoubtedly be an outcry against it, as happened when restorers began to remove much of the famous golden light from Rembrandt's paintings by cleaning away yellowed varnish."
" The present high value of a dirty varnish on beautiful wood will diminish when connoisseurs begin to want to see clearly the maker's original choice of materials and design features and the glowing patina the wood has achieved."
jacon4
Well-known member
One of the best book's i have read on finishing is Bob Flexner's "Understanding Wood Finishing". Flexner is the guy who challenged Antique Roadshow's so called furniture "experts" on the original surface nonsense some were advocating on the show which forced Roadshow producer Peter Cook to publish the following letter in 2002.
The editor of the magazine, Bob Flexner, contacted the shows' producers and explained the impact the misunderstanding was having on the public's perception concerning restoring/refinishing older and antique furniture. Peter B. Cook, executive producer of the television program, wrote a response that was published in the June 2002 issue of the magazine. Here are some excerpts from the article
"A while ago, we at Antiques Roadshow received a letter from Professional Refinishing editor Bob Flexner, pointing out that our apparent obsession (my word, not his) with 'original finish' has had the effect of misleading the public about what repairing and refinishing actually do to the value of furniture - most furniture, that is.
We're now in our sixth season of Antiques Roadshow on PBS... This means, of course, that there's a real premium on the accuracy, dependability and usefulness of the information we provide. ... I'd hate to think that we've created a subset of American furniture owners living in dread of a fatal financial misstep (though Antiques Roadshow is, after all, a show about value, including market value). ... Still, if I'm reading things correctly, it sounds as if Roadshow furniture experts are saying, by and large, 'leaving things alone is good, refinishing is bad.'
Understandably, our Americana experts on the Roadshow live for wonderful old pieces of furniture that have somehow survived in terrific condition - pieces not used too hard, left out in strong light for long periods of time or forced to survive a flooded cellar. Most old furniture, of course, doesn't come close to meeting those standards. On the contrary, most furniture has been well used (even abused), scratched, broken, and often repaired many times. How could such furniture not be improved by a good job of refinishing or restoring? ... A secretary, made by Christian Shively in about 1820, was brought to the Indianapolis tapings this year. It had been stripped and refinished by the owner to remove paint that had been applied many decades earlier. Appraiser John Hays endorsed the need for refinishing and complimented the quality of the work.
... So where does that leave us? Let the record show that Antiques Roadshow generally agrees with this notion: Well-conceived and well-executed refinishing and restoration usually enhances the value of just about any piece of old furniture. Exceptions are those rare (often museum-quality) pieces that have somehow survived in great 'original' condition. If we say or imply to the contrary, we should be called on it."
Peter B. Cook,
Executive producer
The Antiques Road show
The editor of the magazine, Bob Flexner, contacted the shows' producers and explained the impact the misunderstanding was having on the public's perception concerning restoring/refinishing older and antique furniture. Peter B. Cook, executive producer of the television program, wrote a response that was published in the June 2002 issue of the magazine. Here are some excerpts from the article
"A while ago, we at Antiques Roadshow received a letter from Professional Refinishing editor Bob Flexner, pointing out that our apparent obsession (my word, not his) with 'original finish' has had the effect of misleading the public about what repairing and refinishing actually do to the value of furniture - most furniture, that is.
We're now in our sixth season of Antiques Roadshow on PBS... This means, of course, that there's a real premium on the accuracy, dependability and usefulness of the information we provide. ... I'd hate to think that we've created a subset of American furniture owners living in dread of a fatal financial misstep (though Antiques Roadshow is, after all, a show about value, including market value). ... Still, if I'm reading things correctly, it sounds as if Roadshow furniture experts are saying, by and large, 'leaving things alone is good, refinishing is bad.'
Understandably, our Americana experts on the Roadshow live for wonderful old pieces of furniture that have somehow survived in terrific condition - pieces not used too hard, left out in strong light for long periods of time or forced to survive a flooded cellar. Most old furniture, of course, doesn't come close to meeting those standards. On the contrary, most furniture has been well used (even abused), scratched, broken, and often repaired many times. How could such furniture not be improved by a good job of refinishing or restoring? ... A secretary, made by Christian Shively in about 1820, was brought to the Indianapolis tapings this year. It had been stripped and refinished by the owner to remove paint that had been applied many decades earlier. Appraiser John Hays endorsed the need for refinishing and complimented the quality of the work.
... So where does that leave us? Let the record show that Antiques Roadshow generally agrees with this notion: Well-conceived and well-executed refinishing and restoration usually enhances the value of just about any piece of old furniture. Exceptions are those rare (often museum-quality) pieces that have somehow survived in great 'original' condition. If we say or imply to the contrary, we should be called on it."
Peter B. Cook,
Executive producer
The Antiques Road show
Hey Everyone,
In response to jacon4, I don't think we should pull out the cannons yet.
It was my belief that I was responding in regards to a situation, not involving an Antique, but a project that Carden had built from a kit. It has always been my way of thinking that if you build it, you can do what ever you want to it.
On the other hand Antiques should be carefully assessed for what they are and were. From where I come from (Training) Bob Flexner is considered a middle of the road restorer(no offense intended). His books are great, for the average person trying to put some life back into every day pieces of furniture. As far as High End (Museum Quality) Antiques, I think the Antique Road Show, may have done a service to the Antique Community, by telling people not to alter so called original finishes. The average restorer does not have the capability to work on high end pieces (those original finishes that have slipped through time). In my daily routine, I do work on these original finishes, they are out there.
As far as the grunge goes, this can be a very crazy field. An example that comes to mind, working for High End American Dealer, (unfortunately now deceased) based out of Connecticut and Nantucket, called me to work on his collection before going to his shows. Upon entering his shop, I immediately thought of what Lord Carnarvon said when he entered the Egyptian tomb (I see wonderful things). The shop was filled with Period Pieces some with original finishes, some had been altered over the years. I immediately walked straight to the far side of the shop with my tool box and stopped in front of a Highboy that had the worst case of grunge, I had ever seen. It contained mud, scratches, dust, and the reason I walked across the room, bird droppings down the front in all its white glory. Put my tool box on the floor and was about to remove the bird droppings and some of the dust, when the dealer came running across the room, shouting NO!NO! don't touch it. But what about the bird droppings I said. He said that the Bird droppings were part of its History. The piece had spent the last 250 years in the corner of a barn. It was purchased by people who had no room for it in their house, and stored it in the barn. I walked away thinking that, with the looks of that piece, it will sit there forever. To my surprise, two weeks later I seen it being placed in a truck for delivery to its new owner. Price Tag $1.5 million.
Today's technology in this field, as come to the point, to where finishes can be cloned. That is for example, if we have a very old surface, alligatored, dirty, etc. You can take an imprint of the surface, and reapply it to a damaged area, like a water ring, etc., and have the texture exactly the same as the surface you took it from. Now I don't work on Paintings, and seldom on Painted pieces of Furniture, because I believe they are what they are. But there are people who can restore painted pieces, with mind blowing results. So back to the question, should you leave it alone? I would say Yes, because the average restorer hasn't the capability of working on High End Old Finishes, but with the right Conservator, amazing things can be done, without being detected.
In the early years of the Antique Road Show, I worked for many of the Dealers on the show. I was amazed at how many times they would tell an owner, If it had only not been stripped or had bad repairs, it would be worth much more. Some of these pieces would then make it into the dealers hands and then mine and then back into the market as not being repaired. The Antique field can be a very scary market for investors. I often shop with clients to make sure they are getting what they are paying for. This is nothing new in history, and has been going on for centuries. Dealers say it is part of the game.
For those of you who are wondering where you can obtain/learn techniques for restoring/maintaining and preserving Historic Finishes, a great place to go is DCTC College, based in Rosemount, MN. Ask for Mitch, tell him I sent you. The woodfinishing course there covers all aspects pertaining to wood and finishing. Don Williams, Senior Conservator at the Smithsonian, gives summer courses there. In my opinion, anyone in this field, should definitely make this a destination. I attended the school in the early 80's, became an assistant instructor in the middle 80's, and have been a supporter of the program ever since. My latest study's are on the preservation of Historic Finishes through fumigation. That's right, we don't even touch the surface anymore. Still blows me away.
The Minneapolis Institute of Art, contains an early 19th century Armoir, attributed to the Natchez/Mississippi area, that was brought to me just before the opening of the exhibit, "Currents of Change". The problem with the Armoir, is that it was so alligatored, that when put under the Museum lights, the surface reflected the lights and turned it white. I dismantled the Armoir, and through the fumigation process, was able to re-amalgamate the surface back to a smooth consistant sheen. I never physically touched the finish. Thus leaving it all original or original to what was given to me.
Like paintings, repairs on furniture can also become visible by the use of a black light, another tool to have in the tool box.
Check out the school, you can learn great things there. Randy
In response to jacon4, I don't think we should pull out the cannons yet.
It was my belief that I was responding in regards to a situation, not involving an Antique, but a project that Carden had built from a kit. It has always been my way of thinking that if you build it, you can do what ever you want to it.
On the other hand Antiques should be carefully assessed for what they are and were. From where I come from (Training) Bob Flexner is considered a middle of the road restorer(no offense intended). His books are great, for the average person trying to put some life back into every day pieces of furniture. As far as High End (Museum Quality) Antiques, I think the Antique Road Show, may have done a service to the Antique Community, by telling people not to alter so called original finishes. The average restorer does not have the capability to work on high end pieces (those original finishes that have slipped through time). In my daily routine, I do work on these original finishes, they are out there.
As far as the grunge goes, this can be a very crazy field. An example that comes to mind, working for High End American Dealer, (unfortunately now deceased) based out of Connecticut and Nantucket, called me to work on his collection before going to his shows. Upon entering his shop, I immediately thought of what Lord Carnarvon said when he entered the Egyptian tomb (I see wonderful things). The shop was filled with Period Pieces some with original finishes, some had been altered over the years. I immediately walked straight to the far side of the shop with my tool box and stopped in front of a Highboy that had the worst case of grunge, I had ever seen. It contained mud, scratches, dust, and the reason I walked across the room, bird droppings down the front in all its white glory. Put my tool box on the floor and was about to remove the bird droppings and some of the dust, when the dealer came running across the room, shouting NO!NO! don't touch it. But what about the bird droppings I said. He said that the Bird droppings were part of its History. The piece had spent the last 250 years in the corner of a barn. It was purchased by people who had no room for it in their house, and stored it in the barn. I walked away thinking that, with the looks of that piece, it will sit there forever. To my surprise, two weeks later I seen it being placed in a truck for delivery to its new owner. Price Tag $1.5 million.
Today's technology in this field, as come to the point, to where finishes can be cloned. That is for example, if we have a very old surface, alligatored, dirty, etc. You can take an imprint of the surface, and reapply it to a damaged area, like a water ring, etc., and have the texture exactly the same as the surface you took it from. Now I don't work on Paintings, and seldom on Painted pieces of Furniture, because I believe they are what they are. But there are people who can restore painted pieces, with mind blowing results. So back to the question, should you leave it alone? I would say Yes, because the average restorer hasn't the capability of working on High End Old Finishes, but with the right Conservator, amazing things can be done, without being detected.
In the early years of the Antique Road Show, I worked for many of the Dealers on the show. I was amazed at how many times they would tell an owner, If it had only not been stripped or had bad repairs, it would be worth much more. Some of these pieces would then make it into the dealers hands and then mine and then back into the market as not being repaired. The Antique field can be a very scary market for investors. I often shop with clients to make sure they are getting what they are paying for. This is nothing new in history, and has been going on for centuries. Dealers say it is part of the game.
For those of you who are wondering where you can obtain/learn techniques for restoring/maintaining and preserving Historic Finishes, a great place to go is DCTC College, based in Rosemount, MN. Ask for Mitch, tell him I sent you. The woodfinishing course there covers all aspects pertaining to wood and finishing. Don Williams, Senior Conservator at the Smithsonian, gives summer courses there. In my opinion, anyone in this field, should definitely make this a destination. I attended the school in the early 80's, became an assistant instructor in the middle 80's, and have been a supporter of the program ever since. My latest study's are on the preservation of Historic Finishes through fumigation. That's right, we don't even touch the surface anymore. Still blows me away.
The Minneapolis Institute of Art, contains an early 19th century Armoir, attributed to the Natchez/Mississippi area, that was brought to me just before the opening of the exhibit, "Currents of Change". The problem with the Armoir, is that it was so alligatored, that when put under the Museum lights, the surface reflected the lights and turned it white. I dismantled the Armoir, and through the fumigation process, was able to re-amalgamate the surface back to a smooth consistant sheen. I never physically touched the finish. Thus leaving it all original or original to what was given to me.
Like paintings, repairs on furniture can also become visible by the use of a black light, another tool to have in the tool box.
Check out the school, you can learn great things there. Randy
Randy, With your expertise as a conservator, do you have any advise as to what other lights beside the black light are used to reveal hidden markings/ signatures? Also are there any books you could recommend that are used in your conservation classses? Thirdly, what scopes might you recommend to study old surfaces, woods, hardware, and glues for an in depth examination of important period pieces? thanks, Ross
dkeller_nc
Well-known member
The (sort of) amusing thing about this subject is that SAPFM members are considerably more likely than your average woodworker to "do no harm" to the original finish and/or patina of a period piece of furniture. And I would say that, for financial reasons, I would do nothing to an original J. Townsend piece should I be so astoundingly lucky to run across one in a barn.
Yet, I would say that I don't have any respect for an absolute interpretation of bird droppings, leftover bearing grease, rat's nests or other detritus as a part of a piece's history. I dare say that I would be correct that the original makers of such a piece would be absolutely horrified to see their work displayed and cooed over in such a dismal state of affairs.
The extreme irony of the situation is that while SAPFM members would have a good deal more knowledge of and respect for the original surface on a piece of period funiture, many of the same collectors and dealers that insist on "grimy original surface" have little respect for SAPFM members, viewing all reproductions as fakes.
Yet, I would say that I don't have any respect for an absolute interpretation of bird droppings, leftover bearing grease, rat's nests or other detritus as a part of a piece's history. I dare say that I would be correct that the original makers of such a piece would be absolutely horrified to see their work displayed and cooed over in such a dismal state of affairs.
The extreme irony of the situation is that while SAPFM members would have a good deal more knowledge of and respect for the original surface on a piece of period funiture, many of the same collectors and dealers that insist on "grimy original surface" have little respect for SAPFM members, viewing all reproductions as fakes.
I feel compelled to comment.
Certainly there are occasional reasons to leave old finishes intact; for educational and interpretive purposes. But leaving an historic piece with bird droppings on it literally looking like a piece of crap is a clear example of "the emperor's new clothes." Only fools would think it attractive.
"What?" you say. The post above describes a piece with bird droppings on it that sold for $1.5 million. Well if the purchaser didn't return it to it's original splendor I would consider him in the same leaque as those who admired the emperor's new clothes.
Would you leave a Renoir, Picasso or Rembrandt covered with bird droppings? If not, why would you leave decorative art in the form of 18th century furniture in such a state? Wasn't the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel recently restored to it's original splendor?
Somehow, in the U.S. (but not in Europe) bird dropping covered 18th century furniture has become more valuable than professionally restored 18th century furniture. I can only think that "a fool and his money are soon parted".
Howard Steier
Certainly there are occasional reasons to leave old finishes intact; for educational and interpretive purposes. But leaving an historic piece with bird droppings on it literally looking like a piece of crap is a clear example of "the emperor's new clothes." Only fools would think it attractive.
"What?" you say. The post above describes a piece with bird droppings on it that sold for $1.5 million. Well if the purchaser didn't return it to it's original splendor I would consider him in the same leaque as those who admired the emperor's new clothes.
Would you leave a Renoir, Picasso or Rembrandt covered with bird droppings? If not, why would you leave decorative art in the form of 18th century furniture in such a state? Wasn't the ceiling of the Cistine Chapel recently restored to it's original splendor?
Somehow, in the U.S. (but not in Europe) bird dropping covered 18th century furniture has become more valuable than professionally restored 18th century furniture. I can only think that "a fool and his money are soon parted".
Howard Steier
Hi All
I have to admit, when it comes to antique dealers and interior designers, I don't have a clue how there field works.I have seen furniture double in price by simply changing booths at antique shows. And interior designers with designer looks for antiques seems to be the line in the sand for me.But these people know there market and make a living at it right or wrong. By the way, I checked on the status of the grimy cabinet,it still has the same look and is being eyed by a museum. Strange things happen.
Ross For reading try, http://cool.conservation-us.org/ or http://www.conservation-us.org/ as for books Bruce Hoadley has good books on wood.I'm not in the office now but if your interested I could look for the reading list for the class Don Williams gives at DCTC in summer. Or better yet , look up the school and take the class, its well worth it. Randy
I have to admit, when it comes to antique dealers and interior designers, I don't have a clue how there field works.I have seen furniture double in price by simply changing booths at antique shows. And interior designers with designer looks for antiques seems to be the line in the sand for me.But these people know there market and make a living at it right or wrong. By the way, I checked on the status of the grimy cabinet,it still has the same look and is being eyed by a museum. Strange things happen.
Ross For reading try, http://cool.conservation-us.org/ or http://www.conservation-us.org/ as for books Bruce Hoadley has good books on wood.I'm not in the office now but if your interested I could look for the reading list for the class Don Williams gives at DCTC in summer. Or better yet , look up the school and take the class, its well worth it. Randy
jacon4
Well-known member
I am entirely in agreement with dkeller & HSteier on this one. There is a very thoughtful article in MAD about the state of the american antique furniture industry that explains on where the market is now, where it is headed and touches on "original surface junkies" prospects going forward. It is not a pretty picture for those that care about americas furniture heritage and I applaud Hollie & Andrew for having the courage to speak plainly about this issue.
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/stories/index.html?id=2246
http://www.maineantiquedigest.com/stories/index.html?id=2246
If this discussion was useful, there are twenty years of them here. Join SAPFM to take part — the forum, the journal, the magazine and the members’ gallery come with membership.